Genres that could be added/replaced

I disagree. I frequently hear them referred to individually, and I have the 'Hip hop music' Wikipedia up now and it doesn't say, "Well, actually, they're the same thing".

If you actually Google the difference, there are numerous pages about it.

I've mentioned before that the list needs reworked. Trance, Techno, House, Ambient and Trip-hop are all Electronic, so those can easily go. I agree with Joey about the Hip-hop/Rap though.

Joeyy, on the Wikipedia page, it says this:



But then later on, it says this:



So it kind of contradicts itself. I always viewed the two as being the same genre. If there is a difference between the genres, it's rather ill-defined in my opinion.



Yeah, I agree. What do you think about the proposed genres I suggested we add, new wave and comedy (or novelty)? Would those work? Or should we stick to more general, umbrella genres?

If anything, I think we should have a comedy genre because currently, for artists like "Weird Al" Yankovic and other parody artists, the genre really depends on the individual songs. Whereas comedy would easily cover it all.

It's not a contradiction when you think about it in terms of the article pointing out that some people use them interchangeably, rather than thinking the article itself is saying there that they should be used interchangeably. And it doesn't say those people are right. To me it's just saying that it is also called that...by people who don't know any better.

Besides, anyone could've added that part in. You could have, haha (I don't actually think you did, although it was only edited yesterday ).

I need to go through my messages and find Ray's response. Because I messaged him suggestions on this very subject last year sometime. I think he said no to updating the list but I don't remember why, I'm sure it was a good reason. Or maybe it's one of the things on his "list."

In my message it looks like I suggested these: "Opera, Acapella, Spoken Word, Comedy, Contemporary" ... Although I'm sure there's more to add. Or we could suggest, just having like a basic list of genres.

I'll take this as a joke But nope, I didn't edit it. It was already like that.

Anyways, what you're saying makes sense. Though the whole debate between them is still confusing to me, haha.



Sure thing. Let me know if you find it.

I like those ideas too. There's really a lot that could be condensed and a lot that could be added at the same time.

So wait, did you just find your sent message and not his response to it as well?

EDIT: I just realized there's a Club genre as well. I've never heard of that being a genre in itself, and I don't even think it is. Sure, there's music that plays in clubs, which would be categorized as dance music, but that should definitely be condensed into Dance.

Yes, I found the messages, and I guess I never responded back to him about it.

He asked if I had a plan or a good way to handle it. If I did, he was up for suggestions, but he wasn't really keen on the genres and then sub-genres as well. I think he wants just one list and not too complicated. Maybe he will respond here. The message is from last year, with the new site maybe he's got some new ideas since then.

Silly Sierra But yeah, I would hope so. A lot has changed on the site since last year and I'm sure he's open to new ideas like this.

Also, by "not too complicated", do you mean the more umbrella genres, like rock, pop, folk, metal, etc.? Or do you think he'll want the more specific stuff we mentioned as well?

I thought about replying to help this thread along and clear up the confusion that Nicolas has encountered.

I don't think I can easily write something that will explain too fast to do this---but I'll try (Sorry if discussion moved on--I'm responding to earlier posting by Nicolas posts numbers 3 and 7---why aren't posts numbered?) but I'll try anyway as I hope it will help the discussion and maybe LSI site too if you all are aware of these factors...

Will try to make this understandable (I attached a paper link someone else wrote--I can only share first two pages it seems---sigh--without paying for access for everyone)....

I am and have been for some time familiar with various discussions about the problems of "genre selection"

See this more scholarly quote about this topic which far exceeds what Wikipedia can discuss:



Citation (and click the button "Look Inside" for a free look at 2 pages of article where quote comes from) ....

I have attended actual conferences where the role of Hip Hop versus Rap versus all other types of music (due to the so-called "sampling problem") was discussed and debated upon by experts.

The Wikipedia articles (this comment is directed this at Nicolas, but all can take my thoughts on it) are in general, good, quick and easy to use, but that is just that They are good, not excellent sources of knowledge--and definitely not the definitive word on any subject.

The articles are written and can explain topics well, as there can be many authors (100?) who can contribute to the success of each topic/article.

Ok, enough of that.... let us get back to the topic here of Genres. I am of the group mentioned briefly in Wikipedia [that confused Nicholas ] that believes in creating as many individual genres of music as possible corresponding to the different styles of music as they develop.

* offtopic :
I wanted to say this part before so its good here but slightly off the topic for this thread as the correct moment for posting it long passed.... So lets say in about 50 years from now, when music tastes/styles, etc. have dramatically changed (yet again!) someone in that far off time will classify all of these current genres and lump them all into one category, calling it something to the words like "Early 21st Century Modern/Pop Music"

So in the end, what I propose for LSI site is for us to just create as many genres as we can, and populate them with all of the correctly labeled songs and artists that we (subjectively of course) determine fit in there.

As to my last sentence... anyone want to comment on that?

Maybe rap can be said to be under the hip hop umbrella, but not all hip hop is rap!

Like Joey said, they may be used interchangeably by some, but that doesn't mean it's a universally agreed upon definition.

Am I correct in thinking/remembering that we used to just be able to put one genre per song? And now we can add several. So we could have a list of quite specific genres and if a song has elements of several genres we can put them all.

I don't know if comedy is really a musical genre but I like the idea. Things can be tagged as "comedy" and the more musical genre. (I don't know if comedy is the best word, but something along those lines.)

I first wrote: How about "humorous" if the song makes you laugh?

Then I looked up the two.... Humor Definition:

While you got it... "Comedy" is defined as Think of Shakespeare etc, who wrote both comedies and tragedies... That means we can use "Comedy" as a genuine "genre" for music as well.

Cite: OED (of course).

Comedy doesn't really describe the music though. The lyrics might be comical, but the music is probably still another genre like rock or pop or rap or whatever.

When I look up Nicolas's "Weird Al" on iTunes it says the genre is comedy. But this is all confusing, we need to decide what kind of list we want. We could keep it simple, this is a good one, only a few adjustments need be made, or something like this with all the subgenres. Maybe we have the genres available, and to get to the subgenres by clicking the main genre. But some members or guests may not want to bother with this as it may be too much for them or too confusing.

Bumping this as I don't believe Ray saw it yet. It would be nice to get input from him on adding additional genres.



Well, yes, but even still it's important to note that a comedy song is a comedy song on the site. I personally think it's odd to see songs here by comedy artists listed as just rock or pop, it's important to have the comedy part listed in there too and it would look better. I mean, using Weird Al as a good example, sure, he does parodies of rock, pop, country, etc. songs, but the underlying aspect of all of his music is the comedy in the lyrics - it's what he's known for, after all. Therefore I think it's important to add that genre.

I also disagree with "comedy doesn't really describe the music". Vocals/lyrics are part of a song, aren't they? And lyrics aside, instrumentation can also be humorous at times.



I think the lists you linked are a little too confusing and there would just be too many options here for new users to navigate through. People these days are all about getting things done the easy way, and as you said, I'm sure they'll be turned off if they have to navigate through a huge list of genres. We should keep it relatively simple, but at the same time it shouldn't be too simple and at least have suitable categories that most songs can fit in. And like it's been mentioned here already, there are some sub-genres that exist here that fall under broader genres, so some should be condensed as well, if this is even possible.

I see Nicolas' point about the comedy/comedic genre. It might only describe a song's lyrics and not its music, but why shouldn't "genre" include all aspects of a song? Then again, that could be taken to the extreme of arguing for "sad", "happy", "angry", etc. genres as well. *Strokes the imaginary beard*

That's why I said it could be tagged as both comedy and another genre. I agreed with you that adding comedy is a good idea.

Yes, the lyrics are part of the song, I never said they weren't. :S Just that it's not all of it.

Well, the way you worded it implied that comedy wasn't a valid genre. To me the way you said "comedy doesn't really describe the music" made me think you were against adding it as a genre (and again, lyrics are part of music - a huge part of it, in fact). That's just the way I read it, but I see what you're saying now.

Also, I don't know if Ray is even checking this board like he is the Support board, so I'll have to PM him directly once he answers my questions regarding Help Moderator business (I already sent him two PMs awaiting a response, so I don't want to bombard him with another )

I could have been clearer, I guess. I was trying to differentiate between lyrics and music as in the-part-of-a-song-that-isn't-lyrics.

I agree with you. Adam Sandler comes to mind as well--a lot of his songs are comedic in nature.

Hey Guy, sorry for joining this late. This thread was not on my radar. Now it is. So, genres, pffff. It's like PracticePractic quoted:



Very true, just take a quick look at the discussion goin on here So how do we integrate the genre thing into LSI. Think of two extremes:

1) We add every single genre there is to the site
2) Only keep the main genres

Both options have pros and cons. The most important that I can think of: Option 1 has the advantage that every song can always exactly be genre-alize (is that a word? ). This is not only nice to present as info, but it probably will also make systems on LSI that work with genre fingerprinting get a bit more accurate (similar artists, artist genre, album genre and personal genre fingerprint). Since option 2 only works with main genres, this is a fixed list and does not need to be updated regularly with the latest new exotic genres. Only working with main genres makes it also easy for the editor, not everybody is a music expert.

So I think it's best to get the best out of two worlds; make the list long enough so that you can always select the right genre for a song, but do not present a monster list so that the average song editor on LSI gets confused. Exactly there, that's the spot we're looking for. Makes sense?

So before we start to discuss what genres need to be added to the list or need to be removed, we need to take a look at the framework. What's the plan? Once that has been set up, we're going to refresh the list itself. A plan?

Great ---set a plan first Ray!

Sorry to comment on your comment so others don't see your name as "last/most recent to reply" (I think its important that appears on the most active list, so please Ray, just write a one word reply to this so that your name gets to be last comment and others will definitely check it out.
I know I always do, when you comment on a topic! Ok?)

My comment on a plan is that I don't know enough or seen enough to answer my own question that if a song spans two Genres , when it comes to genre-izing it, what if one person/submitter/moderator chooses one genre and another chooses another? i.e. if a dispute arises among choosing genres?

Is there maybe instead, a possibility for a song/album to be listed in two or more Genres?

If the answer is yes.....then is there going to be a "limit" set on the number of Genre's per song/album etc.?

I know there actually is written a limit on the number of artists contributing to the credits, for the writing of a song (its 4) its a maximum that is held to in the Industry--- would there be or is there out there a limit on the number of Genre's for those songs that are cross overs? I would be nice if a song could be found on lists of more than one Genre---again-- I've not explored enough of these to know if this is regularly done here so I leave it to you, the experts to comment back on this.

(Edit in: I fact checked out a few artists that I know do cross-genre songs.... surprise! They have up to 3 listed so far---others by the same artist have "none"!!! listed---so again there would be many corrections that need to be accomplished once a definitive (i.e. as of a certain date) list is created and placed on a drop down menu on the site.)

Good Luck!

Succes!

Hopefully this will help kickstart your plan, Ray. This is just from my point of view, and some of these have already been discussed in this thread. So, of course, this is open for discussion, as there is always room for more debate. And obviously, this isn't a complete list, just some genres that immediately come to my mind in terms of being added/deleted that we should have.

Genres that can possibly be added:
- Comedy or Novelty, or both. We already discussed this, some musicians are best-known for comedy music and is used as a genre in itself.
- Experimental. Unless this is the same as Avantgarde? Wikipedia does have separate pages for each, though.
- New Wave. A pretty popular genre, both in the '80s and the more recent "new wave revival" bands round now. Sure, it would probably fall somewhere between "Punk" or "Rock", but it's commonly held as its own genre nowadays.

Genres that can possibly be removed:
- Cult. What exactly is Cult music? Is it explicitly defined somewhere or more of an umbrella term? I can't find a page for it on Wikipedia.
- Rap. There was a big debate on this when I first started the thread about whether Rap and Hip Hop are essentially the same genre (hip hop is used more now, "rap" redirects to "hip hop" on Wikipedia, etc). I still think it's redundant to have both, personally, but again, it's debatable.
- Techno and Trance. Both of these can easily be condensed under Electronic, I would think.

Genres that can possibly be renamed:
- Avantgarde. This should be renamed to avant-garde with a hyphen. I've seen it with a hyphen pretty much everywhere. Plus, the term comes from the French term for "advance guard" - two words, therefore the genre is hyphenated.
- Ethnic/Folk. I think this should just be renamed to "Folk". It's the name most people recognize the genre as, and while Ethnic seems to be more of an alternate name for it, I rarely hear it called that.

This should get things started

I'm not sure how you're still coming to that conclusion on Rap and Hip-Hop, but I think you're on your own on that one. We'd be a joke of a music site if we didn't have both. You can't just make up your own definitions because you personally think certain genres are similar enough to be shoved under one.

I don't know what Cult music is, but I despair if there are people who think something can only exist if it has a Wikipedia page.