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one nation, 'under god' ?
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| read 83 reaction(s) |
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@ 14-09-2003 02:50 OmG_lYkE_LoLieZ | 30 posts
| i notice a lot of familiar shows like tough crowd discussed this debate, and my class has gone through this debate ...... eh, i cant count that high. anyway, i see both sides of the freaking debate.
to leave it as is: i dont see why anyone should get racked up about it! if you dont like it, dont look at it! dont say it! and although you have to recite the pledge of allegience to the flag when becoming a US citizen, you can just say it and not really go for it. and one other thing, when they say 'god' they mean supreme being, not necessarily the christain god.
to change it: it was added on to the pledge of allegience later, whats wrong with taking it off? and think of the atheists, they are descriminated and offended everytime the pledge of allegience is recited! and how would christians feel if it was "one nation under torah" or something like that?
soo.....
what side of the debat are you on? |
| Showing posts 26-50 of 83 | Page 2 of 4 |
| Discussion |
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 0  @ 15-09-2003 02:08 prinzess1518 | 170 posts
| the indians didnt build the united states cuz the white people came and practically killed them all | | 0 @ 15-09-2003 03:13 Egginator | 15,398 posts
| lies my teacher told me- i think that was written by howard zinn, not positive though. | | 0 @ 15-09-2003 03:17 andro | 
42,248 posts
| I'm ion the side of the dabate that says that religion and government (church and state) should always be kept completely separate. The pledge of allegiance, contains religious undertones and is used primarily by the US immigration department. So by my logic, the two entities are being intertwined when they're supposedly being kept apart.
'Nuff said | | 0 @ 15-09-2003 03:21 anoobis | 15,407 posts
| i think the pledge of allegiance is unnecessary, if not damaging. after awhile of repeating it, its just a bunch of sounds u make every morning, and not what it really is: a declaration of loyalty. so save it for when it counts, and take out the "under god" part...if u believe in god, then u believe everything is under god, so it doesnt matter whether or not its there | | 0 @ 15-09-2003 08:33 Plantagenet | 
12,864 posts
| lucky i wasnt aware that they wrote the bill of rights, or the constitution, or had anything to do with the forming of the u.s. government
Well, without the blacks and hte indians, you wouldn't be having a US-gouvernement, honey...
About the saparation of Church and State: I'm for that, but in some ways, religion will always be in all constitutions of the Western world, cause liberal politics as we know that are based on christianity (like Human Rights). | | 0 @ 15-09-2003 10:59 Rass | 5,430 posts
| without the blacks and indians it wouldn't be, true, BUT they didn't create it and they didn't found it, true they were necesary but they didn't make it  this is a stupid stupid stupid arguement that will never ever EVER be solved and on top of that bitching at each other and starting to despise each other isn't going to change any of it so why's it matter?
church and state has NEVER been seperate and i highly doubt it ever will, why yell at each other about it when its not ours to control, can't we all just get along?  | | 0 @ 15-09-2003 11:22 Plantagenet |
12,864 posts
| Rass...that is why this is the debate-section, no one yells at each other, we're simply having a discussion... | | 0 @ 15-09-2003 12:40 lucky_bob | 1,728 posts
| Rass: I hear all these beautiful statements about how the USA was found 'under God'. And that sounds odd to me, because I don't think God would have approved of genocide, racism or slavery.
New Amsterdam, the current NYC, was bought for one symbolic 'daalder' (the Dutch currency at the time) from the indians who inhabited that region. They just stood by and laughed, because they found it majorly entertaining that anyone could think they could 'own' earth. Silly people.
The wealth of the south was bought with slavery, that you are hopefully aware of, but the wealth of the north was bought from the Irish maffia and the scandinavian immigrants who worked in the factories there.
Such capitals were gained that the first 13 states could 'afford' to rebel and declare their independance. Without it, they would probably still be colonies to Mother England. It was only because they had the economic means to become independent, that they did.
Your precious bill of rights was not a bill of 'human' rights but a bill of 'WASP' rights: only respectable civilians could read it and thus use it. When blacks started to claim that they too had rights, they were told to shot up and sing.
Racism, violence and exploitation are at the root and the heart of the American society. Like any society, I might add. Given all this, isn't it slightly hypocritcal to praise God? God would spit on you if he could. | | 0 @ 16-09-2003 02:27 xxxDARKIRISxxx | 1,400 posts
| lucky bob - i like the way u think
Egginator - sounds like something zinn would write.. im lucky to have a very open-minded US Hist teacher, and along with our standard "tx edition" (read: even more conservative then elsewhere) textbook, we got the peoples history by zinn. | | 0 @ 16-09-2003 02:31 xxxDARKIRISxxx | 1,400 posts
| Going along with the seperation of church and state debate here,
my english teaher played a sermon on 9/11.. that was pretty much an extremists view.. like jerry fallwall.. about 9/11 being a wakeup call from god.
This is in english class
supposedly to demonstrate the difference between puritan and modern sermons
(to be honest i didnt see much difference but thats beside the point)
wondering what yalls views are on if playing a sermon for a class is crossing a line..
she then had the nerve to say it was a coincidence that this "lesson" on puritan vs modern sermons happened to fall on the date of 9/11 and her lilttle sermon (which was her fellow teachers fathers sermon) just happened to be about 9/11 ..
not buying that!
especially not when the other english teachers admitted they were playing it bc it was 9/11.. | | 0 @ 16-09-2003 02:49 eeyorelover | 367 posts
| Umm... whatever. It's up to each person. They gotta know by now whats good for them. | | 0 @ 01-10-2003 02:32 LowBrass | 703 posts
| Quote:
YubaCityCutie
posts: 2194 14-09-2003 06:34
Leave it....this nation was founded under God....and the people who fucking bitch about it are the fucking people who believe in "Allah" and shit....so fuck them.....Im sorry for my cussing but this is an issue I feel strongly about....
Wow, that's quite possibly the most prejudiced thing I've ever read on these forums. If I were a Muslim I might just punch you in the face for insulting my god, but I'm not, so you're safe this time. So if a moderator reads this, please make sure that posts like this get deleted.
As far as my opinion on the pledge, I'm an atheist, but I really don't care. It DOES contradict the 'separation of church and state', but our government is a hipocrisy anyway (bastards!). Getting rid of it would probably make a lot of people mad, and would probably cause more trouble than it's worth.
So, in conclusion, it's probably not worth the effort, but if it does get taken off, I pose another question:
What about that same phrase on all of our money? should that get taken off too? maybe I should start a new topic... | | 0 @ 01-10-2003 04:58 Puddle_of_sugar | 3,690 posts
| ok, i was raised in England being surrouded w/ jsust being w/ god and like learning all the stories and stuff, but i never beleieved in the whole god thing, but it didnt matter u know, it was just some random thing, no one cared that much.
then i moved to the us and suddenly religion is such a big deal. like when i was in pittsburgh, this lady sued the school district, cuz, get this, there were red and green sprinkles on the cookies in elementary school and since she was jewish, she thought that was wrong. ok so maybe thats going a little too far, but u get my point. people make it all into such a big deal. its like ok, its religion, whatever, why not belive what u want and let others believe what they want and move on. stop making it into such a big thing, cuz iut really isnt.
and the us was founded under god, although they came here to escape religious prosecution, there was a lot about god molded into the constitution, however it says u dont have to belive in stuff, like u hav ethe right to chose and no one can force the religion upon u.
and when u say the pledge of alligence (i dont cuz i dont believe in it, but i had to in 8th grade) it doesnt mean anything if u dont mean it. i mean, i dont believe in god, but i dont care that much, so i just say it and it means nothing, its nothing special but im not gunna stir up a big fuss about it.
maybe this is all attentiongetting or whatever, but its just such a stupid thing. say what u want, but whatever. its just religion. different people will always belive different things. so instead of making such a big deal over 2 simple words, why dont we focus on things taht are actually important, that actually affect our country.....like californias fat deficit.....like the fact that my school has almost no money left...why are we wasting our money over the stupidest things?? | | 0 @ 01-10-2003 05:06 anoobis | 15,407 posts
| i think if u believe in god, it goes without saying that the nation's under him/her...and if u dont, then u dont. therefore, it shouldn't be in the pledge. but i just wanna reiterate what i said before: the pledge quickly becomes, to the average fifth grader (and that's when all of us did it the most) a bunch of sounds recited every morning  | | 0 @ 01-10-2003 05:54 Dekar | 
36,123 posts
| My virgin ears, virgin ears, virgin ears...
What? I've never been screwed in my ears. have you? | | 0 @ 01-10-2003 06:00 anoobis | 15,407 posts
|  | | 0 @ 01-10-2003 06:17 Dekar |
36,123 posts
| How about they just make everyone happy and say "One nation, under clouds"? | | 0 @ 01-10-2003 15:16 Coombes | 1,334 posts
| why does bush always say 'god bless america'? at the end of his speeches.
that really gets up my nose !!
this self-righteousness in relation to some divine right the US has, really bugs ALOT of other nations.
| | 0 @ 01-10-2003 15:56 Not_Involved | 84 posts
| I have a question...
Why the constant verbal attacks against America, and Americans? What did we ever do to any of you? Saying that we all think we're better than the rest of the world, and that we have some divine association with God or whatever, just because our President says "God Bless America" and because our money says "In God We Trust"...geez...
Okay, first..."God bless America, and every other nation in the world" is just a little bit long-winded; second - "In God We Trust"...gee...we trust in a supreme being...doesn't mean you (non-Americans) can't.
Now, for the Pledge of Allegiance:
I pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America; One nation, Under God, Indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Let's look at it in parts...
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America - pretty self-explanatory, I think...just says that American citizens should have their first allegiance to America. I don't think that's such a bad thing; I mean, the immigrants are wanting to become American citizens...they obviously already left their native country for whatever reason, so why is it unreasonable to ask them to change their allegiance for us, when we're agreeing to let them become one of us?
One nation...pays homage to the days of the Civil War, when the U.S. had broken into 2 separate countries - the United States, and the Confederate States. This phrase is basically just keeping an eye to the past, as in "those who don't learn from their history are doomed to repeat it" It also refers to the melting-pot aspect of the U.S. Unlike European or Asian countries, we don't have a single ethnic or religious group; I myself represent ancestors from no less than 15 different countries, with as many religions, etc. So, saying we're "one nation" is a way to tie all the different backgrounds together, to give American citizens common ground.
Under God...Okay, well, supposedly, "God" is in Heaven, which is supposedly 'up' - therefore, everything on Earth is "under" God. True, it does refer to the the Christian god, but...Christianity and Judaism both have the same God; also, Mohammed (of Islam/Muslim) said that Jews were "blessed people" who worshipped the One True God - so, by default, Christians worship Allah, by a different name. So, it's not just referring to the Christian God - it's referring to the One True God for 3 separate world religions - the 3 largest religions in the world, as I recall. Still is in violation of "separation of church and state", though.
Indivisible This ties more into the "one nation" than anything else; it's a promise that our country will never again pit brother against brother in another civil war; it also promises that there will never be a civil war pitting blacks against whites, Catholics against Jews, Protestants against Muslims, Germans against the Irish, etc.
With liberty and justice for all Yet another eye to the past, and promise for the future; it admits that we have not always had liberty and justice for everyone, and promises that never again will any single group be discriminated against. In the past, Native Americans, African-Americans, and women were all discriminated against...women for the longest, believe it or not...we all supposedly have equal rights (women still don't, not really.), and this phrase promises to protect that.
Okay - done with the Pledge. Now, on to something else...someone said that you swear on a Bible in court...guess what...it doesn't have to be a Bible...just say you're not Christian, and boom! They have you swear on the Constitution.  Traditionally, it's the Bible, and so that's the first thing they give you; it's kind've the default, so to speak. There has actually been debate about it, because it does violate separation of church and state, and so is actually unconstitutional, but I think that's a bit extreme...pretty soon, they'll be saying the Constitution is unconstitutional. | | 0 @ 01-10-2003 15:57 kbockin | 2 posts
| whether you believe in God or not, He exists and one day "EVERY tongue will confess to God" Romans 14:11
God loves you, please accept that love!!! Jesus is Lord! | | 0 @ 01-10-2003 16:31 Dekar |
36,123 posts
| Go jump in a lake. | | 0 @ 01-10-2003 16:36 Not_Involved | 84 posts
| I hate steamrollers...
Thank you, kblockin or whoever you are, for wantign to "save" others, but you know what...I don't need or want you to save me. So bugger off. | | 0 @ 01-10-2003 16:42 Dekar |
36,123 posts
| That's pretty much what I said, lol. In a slightly more subtle way though.  | | 0 @ 01-10-2003 16:42 Not_Involved | 84 posts
| Subtlety is wasted on those too stupid to understand it. | | 0 @ 01-10-2003 16:47 Dekar |
36,123 posts
| You must've understood it, you're 103 years old! |
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